You are rightly frustrated with hearsay and anecdotal “evidence” distorting consumer preferences and pointing them to inferior products. Logic doesn’t seem to help and in fact the parties involved are inclined to prefer hearsay over logic.
The perfect example of this is the Bennett Vector truck. If it’s not the hype around its mid 70s launch boasting large proprietary bushings (gimmicky, in retrospect) and 45° p.a. angle (high, by 70s standards), what is now unique, or even “fine” in the literal sense of the word, about this sloppily cast truck? Read this interview with the Bennetts themselves and consider whether they sound professional, or they try to pass themselves off as alchemists and why they’ve not even bothered improving their product in the last five decades.
For future reference and to promote a dialogue I think it’s necessary to have, I’m copy-pasting here a thread from a skate forum that contains a rather open, honest and at times heated contest of arguments for and against one of the most emblematic products related to this community, the Bennett Vector. (The thread was deleted by the administration in the wake of my Ultraskate article.)
The thread starts with a beginner, “HarryF,” asking whether they should start with a Bennett or a Carver.
1) “Badge of honor” arguments
2) “Magic in the truck” arguments
3) “Beginners need alternatives” arguments
4) “Community glue” arguments
Bennett as a badge of honor (various interlocutors)
I could get a cheap Carver CX kit but i read they are really soft.
[quote=al3x (Changing Angles)]
The LDP people love to hate Carvers, and I believe that’s because they’re too easy (!) to set up for a pumping board. I’m not even sure what “soft” means. If you feel the price is fair I suggest you consider it. Bennett is a headache at best, and that’s saying it very politely.
From someone who has a Bennett, I recommend against it. The stock one will ruin your bushings and the kingpin will break and the quality is dirt. I can recommend a Paris V3 with soft or jumpy bushings.
Carver trucks do pump pretty easy, but most will tell you they don’t have much top end. I’ve read were people have dewedged the rear to make it less turny, I don’t personally know anyone that’s stuck with a Carver. But, I’m sure people have. It’s all really just Pandora’s Box. I will say that I feel like owning a Bennet truck is a must, it’s like a required stepping stone if you are learning to pump.
Why? I never owned one. I mean, not even an effort to substantiate this? I was triggered:P Sorry HBM, but this really is exactly what I’ve been talking about lately (note: regarding the irrational Bennett adoration).
Maybe I’m just nostalgic? Bennet was my first truck purchased specifically for the purposes of pumping. Of all the trucks I’d ridden in it’s price range, I’d felt it to pump the best. And that was in stock form. I’ve ridden better and worse, for the money I feel it is the best front I’ve ridden.
Fast forward to now, and I ride a Bennet with a spherical and Cinnett baseplate. It’s currently my most favored front truck* I own and still what I’d call the best ride for the money, discounting my labors on the install.
That said, I do enjoy RKP style trucks. I just felt the learning curve to be lower on TKP trucks. Shortly after buying the Bennett I had bought 35 and 60 degree Randals. It took learning to pump the Bennett as a front truck to learn to pump the Randal, and the former seemed to manage best a full range of speeds. RKP style trucks, to me, felt best going all out. And I didn’t really want to go all out every time while learning. But of course, your mileage will vary. Or not?
* Technically, at this moment it’s tied for favorite. With an RKP in fact.
That’s a moderate and well reasoned view. We could have a more technical discussion about “RKP vs TKP“, a distinction I don’t think that significant, given that in this context it’s essentially about where the axle is placed. Which is a continuum.
Or a discussion about the importance of well machined and constructed trucks, which I believe is at the core of your account. (I can guess which your new favorite truck is.)
Or a more psychological discussion, about how first experiences, when lacking technical knowledge and understanding, tend to leave strong biases. Biases that we later could but won’t give up because they constitute part of our identities (especially when a certain bias is part of in-group/out-group dynamics – e.g. a picture of a Bennett is the banner of the Facebook LDP group [update: changed in spring ’21]). Which I’m not assuming affects you, but it’s my hypothesis why the Bennett cult exists.
In any case, thanks for explaining and moderating your view. ICYMI, part of the reason why Bennett is terrible (which to be fair affects most old-school TKP trucks; they just didn’t know better back then). Another reason is its inane non-standard bushing height (a relic of prehistoric marketing). Another reason is its poor quality which is unacceptable even in its price range. Another reason I personally dislike it is, despite all the criticism about its poor quality, the company hasn’t tried to improve it and they’re basically cashing in on the Bennett cult, which they actively cultivate.
I don’t like the Bennett because it has poor quality out of the box. To make it better/perfect you’ll need to invest in tools and expensive components (kingpin, bushings, spherical, glue, at least two types of files). Putting the transport cost on some of these and you’ll probably reach to 80€. Plus your work on top of this. And then it’s not a Bennett anymore.
ICYMI, part of the reason why Bennett is terrible (which to be fair affects most old-school TKP trucks; they just didn’t know better back then). Another reason is its inane non-standard bushing height (a relic of prehistoric marketing). Another reason is its poor quality which is unacceptable even in this price range. Another reason I personally dislike it is, despite all the criticism about its poor quality, the company hasn’t tried to improve it and they’re basically cashing in on the Bennett cult, which they actively cultivate.
Ok gonna interrupt here. Yes there is some “culture” around Bennett. But i cannot allow demonization of it because the “hear so” BS. Stock it might not be amazing but it works and easy to get. Here we discuss/advise the modified version. I modify my own and they cost me around €50 incl truck. And it is fun to do it.Like all things modded, if done wrong it will work wrong.1 of these i pumped over 2500km. Still the same bushings. KP gets replaced wil LONGER intervals than my Poppy’s. Spherical is still firmly in place. On this truck i swing my ass off to good music and want to go endlessly. Great for uphills, great for stability when going down. In fact i never had a Bennett that arrived in unacceptable shape (unlike the Randalls i got).So…no graphs, no social media noise but just a review from pure use and experience. End.
Well, if simply “it just works” like any other truck, no thrills no frills, then how do you explain the worshiping? Because what you’re saying is either: Bennett is a just a mediocre truck (that one needs spend money and effort to make usable) and it’s only a coincidence that I, Maclac, like it, when it’s irrationally worshiped like a god by our peers, or: the fact that most of our peers worship it hints to a deeper reality about some assumed attributes that elude us. If you are saying the former, the burden of proof is on you, because I don’t believe in coincidences. Furthermore, if it just happens that you personally like it regardless of the cult around it, what do you care (“won’t allow“) if I deconstruct it? (or “demonize” it? Interesting word. Evocative of deities ;)) If you’re saying the latter, I think we need to take a moment here to appreciate how extremely simple a machine a truck is: It’s essentially an axle that rotates around a pivot axis. That’s it. That’s all. And it has some rigid bits to hold it together. Look at the picture. Anything, a-ny-thing, with an axle ~2cm ahead of a pivot axis would behave exactly like a Bennett (and there are already others like this; but I don’t think it’s the Bennett’s rake that attracts people to it, otherwise they wouldn’t also worship the Poppies). It really has just one job. And it doesn’t do it well. We had better stop rewarding bad products.
It really has just one job. And it doesn’t do it well. We had better stop rewarding bad products.
So the modded Bennetts cost (prices in us dollar, most shops based in Europe):10 $ + shipping for spherical bearing1,75 $ + shipping for the kingpin18,88 $ + shipping for the pivot cup15,33 $ for the Bushings (no shipping as same shop as pivot cups)41,38 $ for the Bennett truck (no shipping as same shop as pivot cups). So one modified Bennett truck costs 87,34 $ + shipping for three shops. Tools not included. If you have a small workshop you have the tools else modding is not an option price-wise. If you already have most of the stuff and want a truck with the specify Bennett feeling, why not.For a beginner who just want to set up the first board I would say there are better out-of-the-box options available at that price range.
Yes, ordering all new price adds up. Most items come in pairs or more. Not worth ordering all just for mod, will cost too much.When you start adding to the fleet just putting the small parts in the cart as you order other things. Before you know it there’s enough spares to play with. Surfrods are in my mind for a long time, I think those will be next to try if i decide for a different truck. Like al3x says, there is so much good stuff out there, most will work. Just cannot buy all and try so getting started is most important with an “acceptable” setup. This needs to be good enough to put you on the right track so you will not get discouraged by it’s bad functioning.
Bennett, the truck of magic (with Skully)
[To al3x:] I’m just hoping that you realize that you toss out a lot of hate for Bennetts, when you only have a few hours of literal experience actually riding one.
2. How much time does The Bennett actually need before it reveals its true nature to the rider in your estimation?
3. Are you suggesting that the only way to recommend to newcomers not to buy the Bennett, is to recommend to them to buy it and see for themselves? Similarly, are you suggesting that the only way to know you don’t want a Bennett is to buy one? Why does it enjoy such a special place and who put it there? Would you also suggest the only way to know a person would die on the moon without a spacesuit, is to try it? Wouldn’t it be too convenient for the Bennett that the only way to criticize it is to use for as long as it takes to come to like it, but not before that?
4. Judging from other relics of the ’70s that made it to this day, I see it might have had a competitive advantage. Cultural significance even. But like the rest of them, it’s comically antiquated for decades now.
5. My critique is based on logic (basic deductive reasoning), not experience, so that it’s appropriately universal and not dependent upon one person’s ability to feel, to connect, to communicate with the truck. This makes the critique accessible to all, and -crucially, unlike personal accounts- falsifiable or verifiable.(If you’re wondering, my personal experience is that it felt like a perfectly ordinary truck, if not disappointing, as back then I still believed that it was made of stardust in heaven, like the Bennett cult (not assuming you in it) makes it out to be).
6. Since I see the truck first and foremost as an object with a very particular use, and not as a social phenomenon, I think objectivity and deductive reasoning is appropriate. If it was a social phenomenon, open to interpretation, then personal accounts, interviews and other qualitative data along with a different kind of reasoning would have been more appropriate.
9. I don’t/can’t “hate” an inanimate object.
10. Skully, it’s just a truck: an axle that rotates around a pivot axis. That’s all. I’m sorry.
Judging from other relics of the ’70s that made it to this day, I see it might have had a competitive advantage. Cultural significance even. But like the rest of them, it’s comically antiquated for decades now.
Maybe the word “hate” was wrong to use, but again I’m trying to point out that you “critique” Bennett’s A LOT, and yet again, you won’t tell us how much real-world experience you have with them, just a hint that it was “5 hours more than necessary.”
“5. My critique is based on logic (basic deductive reasoning), not experience, so that it’s appropriately universal and not dependent upon one person’s ability to feel, to connect, to communicate with the truck. This makes the critique accessible to all, and -crucially, unlike personal accounts- falsifiable or verifiable.“
And therein lies the problem: All the logic, deductive reasoning, diagrams and engineering talk cannot make up for experience. The reason Long Distance Pumper’s like Bennetts so much is because thousands of Long Distance Pumpers have spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of hours RIDING Bennetts in the real world, and Bennetts work for them. They’ve also spent comparative hours tweaking Bennetts. It’s what many Long Distance Pumpers do.
“10. Skully, it’s just a truck: an axle that rotates around a pivot axis. That’s all.“
Yep, “That’s all.”But the “simplicity” of that explanation does not translate to real-world experience, or we wouldn’t even be having this “conversation.”
I responded in my previous post to you all about the importance you (misguidedly, imho, as explained) place on positive personal experience (designed to exclude other opinions by predicating the possibility of voicing an opinion on a positive experience). I don’t think I can say it in another way that would make you understand my point. And you still haven’t responded to the critique itself. Hopefully it’s clear to others.
To the extent that you’re serious about wanting to know how much I’ve used it, you then also have to tell me what is your minimum mandated use time. I.e., the time The Bennett needs to reveal Itself.
[al3x:] “Skully, it’s just a truck: an axle that rotates around a pivot axis. That’s all.“
[skully:] “Yep, “That’s all.” But the “simplicity” of that explanation does not translate to real-world experience, or we wouldn’t even be having this “conversation.”“
What happens in the real world? Something magical? What did I miss?
“The reason Long Distance Pumper’s like Bennetts so much is because thousands of Long Distance Pumpers have spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of hours RIDING Bennetts in the real world, and Bennetts work for them. They’ve also spent comparative hours tweaking Bennetts. It’s what many Long Distance Pumpers do.“
And why is this valuable for the rest of us? How does that grant you special privileges in this community? Is this supposed to be a sport or a workshop? Or is this sport called Bennett distance pumping?
“And therein lies the problem: All the logic, deductive reasoning, diagrams and engineering talk cannot make up for experience.“
Again, think of my “person without a spacesuit dies on the moon” example.
“Maybe the word “hate” was wrong to use, but again I’m trying to point out that you “critique” Bennett’s A LOT“
I don’t understand the quotation marks around “critique” here. It’s not much, but it qualifies as a critique, if I may say so myself. Again, ICYMI, my critique: 1) proprietary (yet reportedly terrible) bushing, that is hard/sketchy (yet necessary) to replace, 2) shit quality, afaic especially at the pivot pin, which shreds the pivot cup, 3) the pivot pin is misaligned with it’s own damn axis thus blocking turning (by far the cringiest problem, afaic) (note: see image to the right; recent post where forum member complains about repeated damage to the pivot pin and cup, wondering why it happens; ironically, the same people I was trying to convince here were dumbfounded by this), and 4) I’ll throw in here the low kingpin picking up debris issue, so you’ll have something easy to get back at me with. I also mentioned a) the predatory practice of the manufacturer who exploits the special place the LDP forums have voluntarily given it, out of which Bennett has made a business model you generously advertise for free, while adding nothing new in terms of research or at least build quality to the community. And, finally, and the reason I jumped in this thread full-on, b) I criticized how uncritically Bennett Vector is actively being given that special place by our peers, perpetuating the whole thing, inadvertently halting progress. I’ve learned in the past it’s hard to say anything about this truck that’s not at worst neutral, so I usually have to tip-toe around how costly it is to set it up to even work (see my first post in this thread), but trying to force this truck down our throats as credentials for in-group membership… no, too much. Why do you get to define who’s in and who’s out?
Does that count as critique? Will you grant me my no-quotes critique status? You know, for a dispassionate Bennett user, you protest too much, I think. Even if I did critique it “A LOT” (which I assume is my right – also, what the capitals are supposed to imply honestly perplexed me), what’s your problem? The countless hours you spent making the thing usable? Well, as you said, you enjoyed them. I just pointed out to newcomers they can just buy a more modern truck, if they’re not into that sort of thing, which would work equally well, or even better from the start. Or the true magic ride of which you think I’m depriving newcomers? Can’t you enjoy that alone? I just told them it’s actually an ordinary truck. There’s no magic, Skully. Just two metal bits, twisting very predictably.
I guess that’s the rub. You will never grant me the license to publicly claim there’s no magic in the Vector, as long as (you come here and tell me) I haven’t experienced it properly or long enough for its magic to reveal itself to me. And its actually existing defects I (and others) list, and all the charts and graphs and engineering of the world (you know, the stuff of the Enlightenment) don’t matter, because of the magic ride it gives… Conveniently circular an argument! The most solid argument from your camp came from Mac. He just likes it for aesthetic reasons. Unsurprisingly, “historical significance” or “retro cool,” while valid, was not added to the advantages. It would’ve been admission that the 70s hype is a thing of the past.
Bennetts work great for thousands of Long Distance Pumpers. There’s no conspiracy, and there’s no predatory manufactures involved. Bennetts have worked for a long time, and people like them. People suggest them because they like them. That’s it. You don’t like them. I’m sorry I questioned your experience versus your critique. And as far as the magic of two twisting metal bits being predictable? If you say so. I think there are hundreds if not thousands of other variables involved which make predictability impossible.
“Bennetts work great for thousands of Long Distance Pumpers. There’s no conspiracy, and there’s no predatory manufactures involved.“
Slow down there 🙂 I only suggested their business model is to exploit a fan base they foster by branding themselves as a mix of 70s skate authenticity and alchemist genius (bull’s eye, tbh), counting on while ripping off consumers who advertise their product voluntarily, while the company gives nothing back to the community that hosts it (arguably, it sucks away creativity), free-riding on 70s hype gone rogue well into the 21st century. I never suggested a conspiracy between the consumers and the company. “Predatory” is a word I would use though (usually reserved for the bigger busters), “charlatans” is another.
“Bennetts have worked for a long time, and people like them. People suggest them because they like them. That’s it.“
You do protest too much whenever somebody doesn’t though, methinks.
“And as far as the magic of two twisting metal bits being predictable? If you say so. I think there are hundreds if not thousands of other variables involved which make predictability impossible.“
A truck is far less complex and more predictable than, say, a ballpoint pen (to name a thing on my desk right now). But, as I said before, that’s the rub with you: you won’t ever grant me criticism rights, as long as I don’t see it as an inexplicable phenomenon, impervious to criticism.
A truck is far less complex and more predictable than, say, a ballpoint pen (to name a thing on my desk right now). But, as I said before, that’s the rub with you: you won’t ever grant me criticism rights, as long as I don’t see [the Bennett] as an inexplicable phenomenon, impervious to criticism.
Bennett is TINA: there is no alternative for beginners (with Thomas)
Maybe my thinking is too simple but now I have 5 pumping-setups and all have the Bennett because I followed my own logic that Mark spent so much time and when he sells so much boards for an advanced price he will think twice which front truck he will use. So this for me was a reference for Bennett. On the other hand: I installed some weeks later a spherical bearing and was very surprised how the performance became better. So I asked me also: why they sell a board for 700 € without this 14 €-piece if impact is so positive? All my boards have in the front the Bennett .
What I miss is to hear more about alternatives to Bennett. In the same price range only Paris and Don´t Trip with 400 € for one board is quite different world. As I only used Bennett I have no comparison but what I really appreciate is that this track was always available not like others often you can´t get for months as the Randal R2 35º since time. I had not so much doubt in the front truck as I was more occupied with the change from the RTS to the Randal R2 and the surprise that the board is now some cm shorter in wheelbase. I think I like more the behavior of the R2 but that the axis comes so close to the deck is technically and optically nothing to desire. The board with the RTS looks much better – I think. What I also miss is the description of a clear advantage in behavior of the alternatives to the Bennett. What does a Paris better? As I stated, no Idea if this thread is intended to some discussion. If so, I would like to ask:I use the Bennett also because here are a lot of experiences and most say around 13º is okay. Using other truck means also investigating for a new best inclination, not? In this case: what is the notable difference in behavior of the board if we incline the front truck too much? Less speed, less acceleration, … ?
You have many questions and remarks requiring attention. Ordering them would help! :). However, I haste to respond to a few.
1) The popularity of Bennett Vector is the main reason GBomb (and everyone else) sells it, and why the manufacturer still exists. In spite of its bad quality, it’s established as a totemic item in this community. Demand=> supply. (whatever the reason, pay attention to the order of cause and effect: one can say a thing is popular because it’s good, but not that it’s good because it’s popular)
2) We’ve discussed why it’s bad. In reality, the problem is not that it’s bad (e.g. Tracker rts is also similarly bad), its that it’s extremely overrated and antiquated, not leaving some room for others. See my short 4 points above about its manufacturing issues.
3) Intimated was also that other more recently designed trucks address these issues while they are priced similarly.
4) Yes, this thread is meant to be a discussion about a truck whose popularity I see as ultimately detrimental to the tech. progress of this sport. Also, it obstructs the view to understanding that trucks are not meant to have character (like, say, decks), but be as transparent as possible. Indeed, that’s what modding a Bennett does. The opposite view holds the truck deserves its popularity because of its “ride.”
5) I personally hesitate to recommend other trucks, because my point is exactly that the characteristics we need are present in the majority of its competition. All we need is to open our minds and survey the market for the best price/quality offers in the various price brackets.
In my opinion, some understanding of what a truck does (i.e., how it turns when you tilt it) is needed to have a more dispassionate debate (and btw to answer your why/what is wedging questions). I invite you to investigate this a bit, if you haven’t yet. Otherwise, the “superb ride” defense will remain moot at best.
The popularity of Bennett Vector is the main reason GBomb (and everyone else) sells it, and why the manufacturer still exists. In spite of its bad quality, it’s established as a totemic item in this community. Demand=> supply. (whatever the reason, pay attention to the order of cause and effect: one can say a thing is popular because it’s good, but not that it’s good because it’s popular)
I have no doubt that a lot of your critic is correct, but if there is no clear alternative, no experience for inclination, no experience what happens when inclination is too extreme (or to less) what will beginner do?- in general the discussion around Bennett for me is too mysterious, too much fame, branding, authenticity, … – I have university degree in automotive technology, worked years at Daimler and Bosch so I think I know what an axis does … – I´m missing extremely more practice orientated arguments. For example: the Bennett 6.0 has a base-plate around 10 mm higher than the 5.0. I mod the 6.0 from 152 mm to 142 mm and can choose to apply the one or the other, depending the deck-highness I like – that is great. What other axis for 28 € offer this?- the Bennett makes a big improof with the spherical- the KP for me is no matter to change. I put a bit epoxy around the half of the thread and all well – the KP is long enough to have space for the spherical – the Bennett is always available in all dimensions in raw or black also here in Spain without shipping costs (not like the Randal R2 where since time in WHOLE Europe there is not one base plate or truck in 35º and even Sk8Kings in USA wrote me today that probably they will get some end of month) I have nothing to defend with Bennett. I started in the back with RTS and changed to R2 because I found interesting information. I stay with Bennett because up to now I found no interesting information for an alternative and I will not spend 400 € for DT. To think that people might investigate all the market to find a truck that might probably be a bit better and do all the research from my point of view is not real. Most people like to drive their boards and not investigate 2/3 of time. So the only way to achieve doubt for Bennett in the market is to offer a better alternative!
1) Your aim, whatever the front truck is, is its axis to be at 60°-65° (you must have known that, no?). Most trucks are built with 45° (e.g Bennett) or 50°. The manufacturers (usually) tell that info. Nobody said you have to wedge Bennett exactly 13°. If you understand how a truck turns, then you understand that it’s axis can have any value you prefer (while you also understand why it can’t be too high or too low).
2) Your point of view is that of the beginner (don’t take this the wrong way, it’s about the essence of our debate). Sure, as a beginner you need easy answers. We gave you “Bennett”, because that’s what we always do. But I’m not addressing the beginner POV here. I’m addressing the seasoned members of the community and invite them to shake off our shackles first and start looking for better trucks (of which there’s plenty; actually, you can’t easily go wrong with, say, 50€). However, I would easily suggest any beginner to go to their local skate shop and investigate for themselves a few simple things (re: my 4-point list above). Allow me to add that this is a forum of volunteers, not a professional service 😉
3) Again, the fact that it’s being recommended to beginners over and over does not necessarily mean it’s good (re: cause and effect).
4) Anything with a spherical would be better (if that’s your thing; downhillers would disagree). Here’s an idea to aspiring manufacturers: ball-bearing instead of spherical. There’s only one degree of freedom (theoretically). [credit for this idea goes to Holden, who posted about this a few years back]
5) I don’t understand why having access to info about modding a truck makes it better (again, cause-effect). Actually, I think I could build a more solid argument that too much info about modding a truck might indicate it’s shit to begin with. Plus, I live in an apartment without tools (not to mention interest) to cut, grind or polish metal. But I can see the appeal this has for many.
6) Board height might be more straightforwardly dealt with by adding risers. As a matter of fact, I do not know of another truck that grows in height along with width! Another Bennett Vector quirk… 🙂
No alternatives redux & Bennett as community glue (with Bushbeard)
I agree that most cast trucks are poorly made and may be technically lacking, however, in reality, there just isn’t many alternatives. If I can find a skate shop, then they generally think that long boarders are kooks and then LDP is something they might not have even heard of. So getting a range of trucks (likely independent or Randal clones) is really hard, costly and frustrating.
Over the years I have experimented with many trucks, but again without modifications (the same as i might do to a Bennett) they lack efficiency in action or are uncomfortable to use.
I enjoy reading the technical discussions (they often end up going over my head), but as you have stated the lack of rigor and empirical research leads one to rely on peer advise and what is available. So while it is OK to rail against the established standard and explore options, it would be great if there was an alternative or practical solution? Unless this is a purely technical “devils advocate” discussion for discussions sake.In all seriousness, have you found an alternative, because half the fun of LDP is tinkering and as always the ideal number of parts is N+1
“Over the years I have experimented with many trucks, but again without modifications (the same as i might do to a Bennett) they lack efficiency in action or are uncomfortable to use.”
My argument is that it’s doubtful Bennett Vector, especially an unmodified one, is nearly as efficient as any basic RKP (yes, a Randal clone, similarly as Bennett and all the other cheap RKPs are clones of … no idea actually … someone in the 50s-70s? Let’s not get caught up in this). The reasons are in those 4 points, especially the thing about the misaligned pivot (ICYMI). Also, what would “uncomfortable” mean in concrete terms?
“it would be great if there was an alternative or practical solution? Unless this is a purely technical “devils advocate” discussion for discussions sake.”
Nothing wrong with a discussion for discussion’s sake and I’m eager for your further points. Also, there is clearly another option which you assume doesn’t exist: go to a shop and find a truck that’s not as bad as Bennett and that’s your alternative. I mean it! 🙂 We all have to do it to get rid of our addiction. And it’s not hard, because most trucks at this price range are better. Isn’t it a tangible alternative, a reasonable proposition? Do I really have to take you by the hand (not you bushbeards, but “you” the imaginary Bennett supporter who thinks a world without it is unimaginable)? I wouldn’t presume, nor my argumentation requires, this to be my task.
Also, why do you think you won’t find an alternative? What do you think makes Bennett so unique? The burden of proof is on the Bennett side (this is the core of my argumentation).
But I will take the challenge, although it undermines my point and also it is a violation of my principle: NO advertising! Go to this link (disclaimer: Sickboards is too large for our own sake and we must start buying our stuff from smaller sellers and it’s not even always the cheapest one. Off the top of my head, try Blackkross.com or Longboardshop.de instead, I can at least vouch for a better service) and pick any truck for me to comment on.
The “bad design” of a Bennett is what makes the Bennett so useful. (an even perhaps, what people love about them)
But again to alternatives, it is only recently that RKP’s came in under 180mm (apart from a randal 125), which has been sub optimal for pumping, even now there is very limited RKP trucks in the width needed.
I guess too what we are also exploring is the balance between efficiency and user experience. But as you have said and I agree; there is limited empirical evidence for efficiency apart from theoretical explorations.
Again I am more than happy to find alternatives. I am in Australia and Bennetts are harder to find than just about any other truck. So suggestions would be great.
Just in hindsight, a big part of the joy of LDP is the tinkering and then the “aha” moment of it all working (hence this forum), perhaps the Bennett’s design creates a user experience that is part of its success.
It’s just that most people (including me) prefer tinkering with things they have time, tools and interest for: angles, wheelbase, bushings, wheels etc. Fixing badly produced trucks is not everyone’s cup of tea. And if that’s what it’s all about, let’s be honest and not advertise this truck to beginners as the dog’s bollocks.
“The “bad design” of a Bennett is what makes the Bennett so useful. (an even perhaps, what people love about them)”
Then people wouldn’t modify the truck precisely so that they mitigate the bad effects of this design mistake.
“But again to alternatives, it is only recently that RKP’s came in under 180mm (apart from a randal 125), which has been sub optimal for pumping, even now there is very limited RKP trucks in the width needed.”
I would readily argue a larger width is far less significant in ride quality than a badly machined, misaligned pivot which is unjustifiable. Besides, 1) our decks are quite wide these days 2) most of us won’t notice a wider axle in the frequency we pump and even if we did, there are remedies.
“I guess too what we are also exploring is the balance between efficiency and user experience.”
I believe it’s mostly a persistent hype that dates back to the 70s that drives this. In any case, I don’t see anything special about the experience of a front raked truck (otherwise Poppies wouldn’t be another LDP staple, or conversely other old school TKPs would be more in demand).
“But as you have said and I agree; there is limited empirical evidence for efficiency apart from theoretical explorations.”
Sure, but it seems the theoretical explorations suggest there’s a problem. Would you argue there isn’t? Use theory, since that’s what we got now.
True (but overstated imho). Again: Poppies as an LDP staple / while other TKPs left untouched.In general, my view is there is no reason not to prefer at this price point trucks without much rake, for the sake of a properly functioning truck. Besides, I don’t see what else would force cheap cast truck manufacturers to fix their antiquated TKP designs.
“This is also heavily influenced by board length, bushings, rear truck, wheel duro etc etc, Which are all likely to impact the ride than a bent pivot point.”
These are all independent of each other. A bad pivot is always a bad pivot and it’s always better if it wasn’t there. Same for a badly set-up board.
“Again I am more than happy to find alternatives. I am in Australia and Bennetts are harder to find than just about any other truck. So suggestions would be great.”
But, didn’t my suggestion interest you? Check the link above and name a few trucks that look ok to you. Better would be to see them in person before you buy them to investigate them. In general, about the “find me alternatives” counter-point: it’s just trucks. In my view, the community has grossly overstated the trucks’ function on boards. Do you want to discuss what their function is in more detail? That would be a bit off-topic, but let me know.
“Just in hindsight, a big part of the joy of LDP is the tinkering and then the “aha” moment of it all working (hence this forum), perhaps the Bennett’s design creates a user experience that is part of its success.”
You must have noticed I agree with that. It’s just that most people (including me) prefer tinkering with things they have time, tools and interest for: angles, wheelbase, bushings, wheels etc. Fixing badly produced trucks is not everyone’s cup of tea. And if that’s what it’s all about, let’s be honest and not advertise this truck to beginners as the dog’s bollocks.
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